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concerned?

 
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Javi
Aqualad


Joined: 07 Mar 2005
Posts: 16

PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2005 7:55 pm    Post subject: concerned? Reply with quote

hey dean -

saw your post in my lj (re the cover of the mm paperback) you said you were concerned... was that a joke or is there cause for concern?

peace -

ja
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deantrippe
Robin


Joined: 04 Mar 2005
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Location: Georgia

PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2005 1:13 am    Post subject: Re: concerned? Reply with quote

Javi wrote:
hey dean -

saw your post in my lj (re the cover of the mm paperback) you said you were concerned... was that a joke or is there cause for concern?

PREFACE: I AM BRUTALLY HONEST HERE, AND THIS IS JUST MY OPINION.

Cover in question:


Yeah dude, I just didn't think it was very good, to be honest. It's not as snappy as Les's usual work, and it's not simple enough for the effect I think he's going for. It looks kinda lazy, really. I'd WAY rather see something more in line with Les's usual covers, which are a breath of fresh air given the state of mainstream comics. I'd only use a cover like this if the artist couldn't deliver the goods, which Les clearly can. He's hiding his capabilities, which (because the cover sells the book) will hurt sales! People already assume that the art inside a book isn't as good as the cover.

This cover is what the book reviewers will post next to their reviews. This cover is what people will see when they go to see what all 'the middleman fuss is about' for years to come, because TPBs have considerably longer shelf life than the books themselves! Honestly, the second issue's cover kicks this one's ass so bad it's going to need a trip to the hospital.

I mean, it's just considerably less confident and coherent than Les's usual work. The shapes are pretty sloppy, especially on MM's face, and the colors are bland. (Speaking of which, I'd change the blue on the Middleman legends book cover to RED and ditch the shadow effect on the title.) I get the kind of thing he's going for here, but I don't think he's achieving it. Maybe a few more rounds of working in this style and he'll have it, but this ain't it.

I advise revision, just as friendly advice and as someone who wants the book to sell like gangbusters.

Also, I personally wouldn't call it 'the trade paperback imperative' because at worst it gives the impression that the story has to do with trade paperbacks, and at best, it refuses to give any information about the story, which unfortunatlely is also a problem with the cover art.

SORRY FOR BEING CRAZY OPINIONATED, but peer review is hopefully a beneficial thing...I know I benefit from it.
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Javi
Aqualad


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2005 12:32 am    Post subject: peer review Reply with quote

i gotta say that much as i appreciate your candor and welcome your opinion (and you know i do), we're just gonna have to agree to disagree on this one... i as as enamored with it as you seem to feel that it falls off the mark... oh well, at the end, everyone has to answer to their own gut.

on to happier topics: how's victorian middleman going?

peace -

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deantrippe
Robin


Joined: 04 Mar 2005
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2005 3:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for being kind enough to listen to my opinion. Man, I hope you reconsider, dude. I mean, it's like how nobody tells Lucas that the prequels are weak. You guys can do better.

Victorian Middleman! Here's a sketch that me and Bann worked up when I started thumbs. NOTE: part of the gun barrel is missing.



BTW, dude. I really enjoyed the newest episode of Lost! Great job. (I wouldn't have pushed the button!)
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Javi
Aqualad


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2005 10:50 am    Post subject: great middleman sketch - but... ouch! Reply with quote

dude! are you playing the"no-one-tells-george-lucas-his-crap-stinks" card on me just because we disagree?

OH NO YOU DIDN'T!

man! that's harsh!

i do love the victorian middleman sketch, can't wait to see what you did with the phileas fogg steampunk balloon and the tesla lightning machine.

glad you liked the last episode of lost, i just saw the next one yesterday and it's AWESOME. all hurley alll the time.

keep up the awesome work -

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Les
Terra


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2005 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I discussed the cover with a couple of guys in the design department at Dark Horse, and they agree that the cover works.

I can see some of your points, but I wanted to go in a different direction with that cover. Just a difference of opinion, really.
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deantrippe
Robin


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2005 5:00 pm    Post subject: Re: great middleman sketch - but... ouch! Reply with quote

Javi wrote:
dude! are you playing the"no-one-tells-george-lucas-his-crap-stinks" card on me just because we disagree?

OH NO YOU DIDN'T!

Hahaha, man. All I'm saying is, as a pretty big comics reader, I wouldn't buy the book with that cover. But I WOULD buy a book with some fresh Les McClaine mojo.

Les wrote:
I discussed the cover with a couple of guys in the design department at Dark Horse, and they agree that the cover works.

I can see some of your points, but I wanted to go in a different direction with that cover. Just a difference of opinion, really.

Eh...well, I wish I could change y'all's minds. I only mentioned my thoughts because you seemed to take them under advisement on your Jonny Crossbones cover. But it's your book. As always, I wish you the best.
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Dr. Uncle
Jericho


Joined: 18 Mar 2005
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2005 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a question...
Will this be a slick cover book---where all the white and yellow layers of ink are raised and glossy? I don't know the term for that...

Because if it is---then I support the design fors sure. If it was a matte finish I would hope for some finer linework.

I really like it myself either way.
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deantrippe
Robin


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2005 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote



This is the second cover, which I mentioned, for comparative purposes.
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stereotypist
Terra


Joined: 05 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2005 7:45 pm    Post subject: Re: concerned? Reply with quote

deantrippe wrote:

Cover in question:


i don't know you guys, but i really respect your work a lot. i don't think the cover is terrible, but i feel like it doesn't quite do les' exceptional line work justice. i can't call myself an artist, so here are some "average joe" critiques--what i would immediately think if i were to see this in a store:

-why is that girl holding a hair dryer?

-why does that other girl have no knees?

-why does that guy have a crack along his nose?

the colors for the girl in the back bother me as well: purple, cyan, and saturated yellow for hair, all on tan and brown. the hair especially seems garish and out of place.

i like the style, and the pose of the girl on the left is really strong, but i am immediately confronted with questions rather than the adoration i usually have when i see les' art.
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weatherwise
Superboy


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2005 12:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Um, take this with a grain of salt because I'm colourblind, but some of the colour choices kind of hurt my eyes in conjunction with the background.

And the MM doesn't really pop out enough, which, being the eponymous character and all, seems a bit counter-intuitive.
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Les
Terra


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2005 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think a lot of folks' color concerns are due to monitor differences-- I've got mine calibrated to print, and I really don't see any color issues. I specifically chose colors that did not clash, but did have a little pop. That pop, if your monitor is calibrated much brighter than mine (most monitors) might look a little glaring.

But here's my main argument for this cover-- I wanted to do something that didn't look like a standard comic book cover. It's a tad more sedate, perhaps, but the large color field with the spiral is (I think) different enough to make it stand out. You'll just have to trust me to know what I'm doing. If I'm completely off base, we can do a different cover for the second print.
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deantrippe
Robin


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2005 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Les wrote:
But here's my main argument for this cover-- I wanted to do something that didn't look like a standard comic book cover. It's a tad more sedate, perhaps, but the large color field with the spiral is (I think) different enough to make it stand out. You'll just have to trust me to know what I'm doing. If I'm completely off base, we can do a different cover for the second print.

I kinda think the spiral looks like it took a minute and a half in photoshop. But, good luck with the book. The only reason I'm being so critical is because you're SO good, Les, and The Middleman is SO good. I just want it to sell as well as it should. I think at the very least, you should reconsider MM's face.

Javi - Am I still doing a pinup for the book?
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Les
Terra


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2005 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

deantrippe wrote:

I kinda think the spiral looks like it took a minute and a half in photoshop.


That's getting a little insulting.

It may not have taken long, but it achieved the effect I wanted-- this cover is based more around 1960's movie poster design than anything else. I wanted a cut-paper Vertigo-esque look, and it looks the way I want it to. Could it be better? Sure. What couldn't?

Here's the final word: I simply disagree with your issues with the design.
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Javi
Aqualad


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 11:22 am    Post subject: yeah... uh guys. Reply with quote

i think now might be a very good time to call a moratorium on "brutally honest peer review."


everyone's objections have been duly noted. les and i love the cover - it's part of a general move toward a nineteen sixties style that we are implementing across the board in the covers. it's a question of taste, let's stop this now before someone really gets pissed off.

re: the pin up - i absolutely want you to do a pin up for the trade as you are a member of "the middleman family" but i think the deadlines are coming in fast - and i wasn't sure about whether you'd want to do it since you already have the legends story in play - has jessie garza been in touch with you about it?

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deantrippe
Robin


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 8:21 pm    Post subject: Re: yeah... uh guys. Reply with quote

Javi wrote:
it's a question of taste, let's stop this now before someone really gets pissed off.

For the record, Les and I have had a considerably nicer conversation in PM's since the last posts and we're still friends...I think. I stand by my points, but think I should apologize for the public nature of these crits...which wasn't really my intention. Sorry guys.

Javi wrote:
re: the pin up - i absolutely want you to do a pin up for the trade as you are a member of "the middleman family" but i think the deadlines are coming in fast - and i wasn't sure about whether you'd want to do it since you already have the legends story in play - has jessie garza been in touch with you about it?

I'm down for the pinup. Drew something up last night. Bann's down for inks and then it's back to me for colors. Legends should still be down on time. Smile
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Javi
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 6:24 pm    Post subject: cool! Reply with quote

dean -

it's all good... and of course you should stand by your opinion... i totally respect that.

glad to hear you are in the pinup game as well as the legends... i have seen two of the pinups already and can tell you that you are going to be in awesome company...

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